The Price of Carrying Everyone Else with Alina Doran

[00:00:00] Alina: The bright light shining spotlight always on that leader. Mm. Their body language, how they walk. Do they look more stressed recently? How is their mood? Every word you say, every way that you glance and don’t glance. There’s a greater pressure that the leaders feel in having this responsibility for thousands of people.

[00:00:21] Yeah. And how they carry themselves makes a tremendous difference

[00:00:26] Rachel: Welcome to Lonely at the Top, a podcast for high-level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world, because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to. Here, we welcome founders, executives, and decision-makers who feel the isolation and pressure that comes with power.

[00:00:45] Lonely at the Top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I’m your host, soul medic, and former psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. Today’s guest is Alina Doran. She’s the founder and CEO of Highline Leadership, [00:01:00] where she partners with C-suite in- leaders, investors, and executive teams at high-stakes inflection points, from post-funding expansion to post-reorganization disorientations, to leadership plateaus, and to burnout.

[00:01:15] A former operator inside of Disney, Paramount, and The New York Times, Alina is known for her strategic precision and no BS candor. Her work spans one-on-one coaching, advisory team development, and high-impact keynote speaking. Mm. She’s delivered her methodology at UC Berkeley’s Haas School of Business, and recently led an executive group coaching session at Gangel’s Velocity Summit during New York Tech Week.

[00:01:43] Her clients include leaders from JPMorgan, Bank of America, Strava, and the Office of the Surgeon General of California. Alina advises graduate programs at NYU Stern and Cornell Tech. Such an impressive bio. You have so [00:02:00] much experience, and we are going to dish.

[00:02:04] Alina: We’re going

[00:02:04] Rachel: there. You know, uh, responsibly.

[00:02:08] Always

[00:02:08] Alina: responsibly.

[00:02:09] Rachel: So I would love to hear, I think our audience would love to hear, you are somebody who gets backdoor access, really, to CEOs and other high-level leaders. So you knew when I invited you onto Lonely at the Top, you had some stories to tell.

[00:02:29] Alina: Sure. Absolutely.

[00:02:30] Rachel: I remember when we first met, also- Mm

[00:02:34] we met through, uh, Jessica Lackey, I believe.

[00:02:37] Alina: Absolutely.

[00:02:38] Rachel: And-

[00:02:38] Alina: Love Jessica.

[00:02:40] Rachel: Yeah. I mean, yeah. We were talking about your experience working at all of these high-level companies, and that you ended up being the ear for so many high-level executives. But what really struck me, and why I wanted to chat with you on the podcast, [00:03:00] partly is because you said that they didn’t want other people to know that they were working with an executive coach.

[00:03:08] Alina: Hmm.

[00:03:09] Rachel: Why do you think that is?

[00:03:11] Alina: Yeah. Well, it– that’s right, and, and you remember, great recollection, great memory. Um, when I started doing this work, I started on the inside, so a-as a full-time employee, and I had a in front of curtain function, and then there was a concurrent behind the curtain function at some of these roles.

[00:03:33] Those did not make it to the bullet points on the resume.

[00:03:37] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:37] Alina: They were behind the scenes. And so that’s how this work started, is years, you know, year after year after year of becoming the, you just sort of, um, consigliere, like, like a, a partner sort of off to the side, where we can have these vulnerable conversations where they would get to ask for advice.

[00:03:57] They would get to ask for my input. Why [00:04:00] that is, there was trust built over time, and I think they saw me as someone who was not threatening, as someone who could potentially help. And they saw that I had effectiveness in areas where they appreciated and needed help with. And time after time, they saw that if they would confide in me, it stayed between us and stayed in that container.

[00:04:24] And no-

[00:04:24] Rachel: It’s no, it’s no secret why they would wanna talk with you. I mean, you- Mm … you are very insightful. Y- I love the no BS candor. I absolutely, I saw that the second I met you. What I’m curious about is why didn’t they want other people to know they were consulting with you? Not, it’s not about you, right?

[00:04:44] Why, why is it- Yeah … that high-level leaders often want to hide that they’re asking for help?

[00:04:51] Alina: Yeah. Um, well, that’s, that’s a really, that’s a great question. We never, you know, we didn’t talk about it openly, like, “Hey, why is that?” Yeah. I think in [00:05:00] those situations, what I would deduce is I had a function that I was, uh, formally hired for.

[00:05:07] Okay. And serving on that, on the side for that advising consigliere, helping mend relationships, helping hold space for something that felt so uncomfortable for them to work out. You know, I wasn’t human resources, I wasn’t the person that would typically in the position, in terms of hierarchy and company structure, be the person that would hold that function, right?

[00:05:32] Mm. Maybe it’s the chief human resources officer, maybe it is the, the business partner. This was a very different case where I was hired for a different function.

[00:05:41] Rachel: Mm.

[00:05:42] Alina: And so my talents were used in a way that was other than what the job description had, and I, I think that’s part of it. Part of it is being an insider.

[00:05:54] Rachel: Mm.

[00:05:55] Alina: Right? It’s a very different, you know, for the folks that had the higher external [00:06:00] executive coaches.

[00:06:01] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:02] Alina: You sit in, in an office back in the day w- back in the day- … when we were all in office, and you see, y- over time, you would get to know who the executive coach would be, walk in with a briefcase and a coat, and walk into that executive’s office, and our team knew.

[00:06:18] They were like, “Oh, yep, that’s the…” You identify the person, that’s their executive coach. Mm. They go into a room and they have a confidential conversation.

[00:06:25] Rachel: Mm.

[00:06:26] Alina: It’s an outsider.

[00:06:27] Rachel: Mm.

[00:06:28] Alina: This was an insider. And so that was a, uh, it, that’s my hypothesis is it’s, you know, off the job description and it’s an insider coupled with b- it being a very vulnerable and uncomfortable space.

[00:06:43] Rachel: Hmm. That’s so insightful, and that absolutely makes sense. I see why if it’s not part of your job function, they’d want to keep that quiet, and I see why being an insider would give you unique, [00:07:00] a unique viewpoint. And I– what really stood out to me is the, one of the first things you said, which is they didn’t feel threatened by you.

[00:07:10] Alina: That’s right. That’s right.

[00:07:12] Rachel: Isn’t that interesting? The higher you are… Like, tell me if you think this is true and if you see this with your clients. The higher you are, the more you have to avoid vulnerability with people who are equal to your level.

[00:07:29] Alina: Hmm. Hmm. I, I think oftentime that’s the trend. You know, is, is it, is it true everywhere?

[00:07:34] No. I think there are leaders where they’re able to bring that vulnerability and the emotional intelligence and self-awareness and bring that to the table as one of their great talents. And oftentimes, I think the higher up in the hierarchy, especially in a larger organization, the more high stakes.

[00:07:54] Every word you say, every way that you glance and don’t glance. [00:08:00] When a company gets news, the employees get news of, you know, we’ve just been acquired, or we’re acquiring a company, or, you know, a change that’s happening, an upcoming reorganization, right-sizing.

[00:08:12] Rachel: Hmm.

[00:08:13] Alina: There’s fear that runs through the company as the initial response.

[00:08:17] Rachel: Hmm.

[00:08:17] Alina: The initial thought that the employee body will think of most often, it’s very human at every level, is, “How is this going to impact me?” And so it’s interesting. I’ve been having these conversations with- CEOs, in the last few months especially it’s been coming up, when they deliver negative news, difficult news, or just a huge change, news of an upcoming change- Mm

[00:08:47] and there’s uncertainty in the mix.

[00:08:48] Rachel: Mm.

[00:08:49] Alina: At that point, everyone is watching them. They’re watching how they walk into rooms. They watch their facial expression when they’re on the phone with their door closed. [00:09:00] It, it’s not an all-hands meeting. They’re not making an announcement to the company. They may be having a conversation on the phone with a business partner, with a colleague about something entirely unrelated, but there’s a sensitivity and there’s a greater lens, right?

[00:09:16] Yeah. There’s, there’s a bright light shining, spotlight always on that leader. Mm. Their body language, how they walk. Do they look more stressed recently? How is their mood? They’re looking for signs. Am I safe? What’s the change? Is this going to affect me?

[00:09:31] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:32] Alina: Over and over and over. And the pressure, there’s a greater pressure that the leaders feel in having this responsibility for thousands of people.

[00:09:41] Yeah. And how they carry themselves makes a tremendous difference because they’re visible. They’re always on stage, whether it’s a formal stage or not. And maybe because they are human beings, maybe they’re dealing with something at home, right? Maybe, maybe they’re having troubles with their marriage.

[00:09:59] [00:10:00] Maybe they’re having troubles with their health. Maybe there’s a loved one going through something. Maybe it has nothing to do with the employees. And so they need, they feel the need to, the responsibility to shelter and protect their people oftentimes. Mm. So the intention for good is often there.

[00:10:18] Rachel: Mm.

[00:10:18] Alina: Most of the time I’ve seen it there. So they feel this tremendous weight of having to perform

[00:10:26] Rachel: Ah, that’s– I think that is– I think so many people listening are gonna get a lot of insight from that, and probably a lot of people listening are going to feel validated.

[00:10:38] Alina: Mm.

[00:10:39] Rachel: You know, a lot of people think they crave the spotlight or they crave high-level positions, positions of power, but they don’t think about when you’re in the spotlight, every single gesture is something that’s being observed and adjudicated or judged or [00:11:00] evaluated, analyzed, and that’s-

[00:11:03] Alina: It’s very intense.

[00:11:05] A- and in fact, I’m thinking of something, the topics around which I happen to have a number of succession planning engagements right now.

[00:11:15] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:16] Alina: Working with folks who are being groomed to be the C- CEO.

[00:11:20] Rachel: Mm-hmm. I

[00:11:20] Alina: have a few of these-

[00:11:21] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:11:21] Alina: happening concurrently. It’s interesting how the universe works.

[00:11:24] Mm. And thinking about the trends in what stands between them and that next level.

[00:11:30] Rachel: Mm.

[00:11:30] Alina: But I have two being developed into the CEO role, one into the CFO role. And what stands between them, there’s a trend, and what the trend is in, in what stands between them and that role, and this might be very interesting to the listeners- Uh-huh

[00:11:47] it, it’s not competence, and it’s not– it’s less often experience in a particular area of, you know, to gain expertise.

[00:11:56] Rachel: Uh-huh.

[00:11:57] Alina: It is more often the emotional [00:12:00] intelligence and the ability to inspire confidence.

[00:12:04] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:12:04] Alina: Inspire confidence in boards, inspire confidence in investors.

[00:12:10] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:11] Alina: And that means working through volatility, volatility in the industry, volatility in team dynamics, and volatility in their own lives.

[00:12:21] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] Alina: And working through that volatility and continuing to inspire confidence in others in spite of what life throws at them. And that-

[00:12:31] Rachel: Because ultimately we are animals. Yeah. Like, we like to pretend that we’re something else, but we are not. We are animals, and we respond to confident feeling leaders.

[00:12:44] Alina: Oh, yes, absolutely, undoubtedly. Safety is what we seek. Safety over and over and over, that’s, that’s the animal.

[00:12:54] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:54] Alina: And the animalistic response when something that we care about that matters to us [00:13:00] deeply is threatened-

[00:13:02] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:13:02] Alina: the animal comes out to protect, for it to not get stepped on, for it not to get thwarted, whether it’s job safety, whether it’s reputation, whatever that is.

[00:13:15] Rachel: And so the leader has to insulate their feelings from what they display publicly?

[00:13:24] Alina: Hmm. Sometimes, and it’s often learning self-management. It’s a huge topic.

[00:13:33] Rachel: Uh- I’m curious. Yeah. How do you… So you have these clients who are being groomed to be C-suite, and they’re working with you to develop that, whatever it is that they need to add.

[00:13:47] That’s what it sounds like to me. Yes. And you said the thing that they need to add really sounds like a thing that frequently people need to add is this ability to maintain that [00:14:00] calm, confident center. Mm-hmm. How do you help people do that?

[00:14:04] Alina: Hmm. It starts from within each and every time. A metaphor that I like to use is you have a pot that’s boiling on the stove, and you can pick up the lid and press the lid on the pot to keep the contents from spilling out as the pot’s boiling.

[00:14:22] When you do that, you’re using the energy in your arm to keep pushing the lid down.

[00:14:27] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:28] Alina: You’re using your attention and your energy and your focus to keep the lid on the pot. Alternatively, what you can do is gingerly walk up to the stove and turn down the dial. And turn the heat down, and now you don’t need to be expending energy on picking up the lid and forcing it down and keeping it down and not taking your eyes off of that pot so the lid doesn’t slip.

[00:14:55] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:56] Alina: You can even walk away when you learn to [00:15:00] calibrate that dial, and then you can go chop some vegetables. You can, you can mix a salad while that pot’s boiling. And that is self-management, and that is what work needs to be done, what needs to be true for you and for every one of us, where we may not need to expend energy in places that aren’t effective or efficient or optimal, right?

[00:15:22] Mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s much more difficult and painful to have to keep a mask on your face and have to keep pretending, pretending that you’re okay. Mm-hmm. Pretending that you don’t have a reaction. That that’s acting, and that’s exhausting. Yeah. And what it’s, what it’s not is sustainable. It’s not sustainable.

[00:15:40] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:15:40] Alina: It, it’s short-term it works, and then that person, it’s a human, and that human comes home, and that human comes home to their family and to their friends, and what are they left with? They’re empty. They’re empty, and they’re resentful, and they’re exhausted, and they have very little left for the rest of themselves.

[00:15:57] And so that could work for a day or two, or a week or two, [00:16:00] or a month or

[00:16:00] Rachel: two. Or months or even a few years. Or

[00:16:02] Alina: years at the

[00:16:03] end.

[00:16:04] Rachel: Yeah. And then they fall down, and then they find someone like you or me.

[00:16:09] Alina: Yes. You know, how many Coldplay concerts can you go to? You know, you’re gonna run out of- Ooh, boy … bands to go watch between whatever that is, the, the rebellion or the Band-Aids, the deflections that people use.

[00:16:23] Most deflections that people use don’t look like the Coldplay concert that we’ve heard about. Mm-hmm. But they look like something a lot more innocuous.

[00:16:32] Rachel: Mm-hmm. I’ll just work harder, right? I’ll just exercise more. I’ll do a marathon. I’ll do an Ironman.

[00:16:40] Alina: That’s right. Right? And on the outside, it looks like a very virtuous thing.

[00:16:43] Like, wow, that’s amazing. You run marathons. Well-

[00:16:47] Rachel: Yeah. I’m not displacing my anxiety and resentment at all.

[00:16:51] Alina: That’s right. And for those listening or watching, it’s not to say that running marathons is a deflection. No, running marathons is a tool [00:17:00] that can be used f- for whatever you choose to use it for.

[00:17:03] Mm-hmm. And so it can be a deflection, it can be literally running away from something, or it can be something that brings you pleasure and fulfills you, and connects to something that you value in your world.

[00:17:15] Rachel: So- It’s never about what you’re doing most of the time. There’s a few exceptions, right? That’s right.

[00:17:21] But in terms of, uh, outwardly looking healthy things, it’s never about what you’re doing, it’s about why you’re doing it.

[00:17:27] Alina: Right. Love that. Yes. It’s always about the driver.

[00:17:31] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:31] Alina: Yeah. Where do you wanna spend your energy?

[00:17:33] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:34] Alina: And so when you ask me, “How do I even start?”

[00:17:37] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:37] Alina: We always inevitably start with what’s happening within that person.

[00:17:43] Where are they? Where are they in relation to their own internal control room? Have they been in it? Do they know that it exists?

[00:17:51] Rachel: Nice. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:52] Alina: Do they know what’s inside that room, the dials, the buttons, the levers? How do they access and [00:18:00] calibrate? And each and every time, it’s an inevitable component of what’s in the way.

[00:18:04] It’s not the degrees, it’s not the titles. Mm-hmm. The checkboxes of external affirmation of success are absolutely checked off.

[00:18:12] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:13] Alina: Right? Like brilliant, well-dressed, title.

[00:18:17] Rachel: Liked. Yeah.

[00:18:18] Alina: Mm-hmm. Liked compensation. On the outside it looks fantastic. But we’re here

[00:18:24] Rachel: Yeah

[00:18:25] Alina: and we’re doing work.

[00:18:27] Rachel: I would love to know, ’cause we’ve been talking about people that you work with, but I’d also love to hear a personal story.

[00:18:35] Can you tell us about a time or a season that really tested you?

[00:18:43] Alina: Yes, I can. There are a few seasons that are coming up, and I’m going to talk about one that really solidified so much change. I will say if, if this were an article that we’re writing, w- the story that I’m going to tell you, the headline would [00:19:00] say something like, “Sometimes life needs to break open to break free.”

[00:19:07] Rachel: Yeah. It’s about- Sometimes, sometimes things need to fall apart to make way for better things.

[00:19:12] Alina: Yes. And- A- and I call it br- it’s my breaking open. It’s, was a very highly pressurized environment. Mm. I was working on a very, very intense public initiative.

[00:19:27] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:27] Alina: International public initiative. And so there was very high visibility and high pressure.

[00:19:33] And how I led and what I did, my impact was affecting thousands of employees.

[00:19:41] Rachel: Mm.

[00:19:42] Alina: The impact of my contributions on the team and my direction would make a huge difference, and stakes were high in that if it didn’t go well, it would be very, very visible.

[00:19:54] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:55] Alina: Very visible to every, to the highest level in the organization.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] At that same time- I had been dealing with the most toxic manager I had ever in my life encountered-

[00:20:09] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:20:10] Alina: by far, and highly uncharacteristic of the types of leaders I was lucky to work with. Mm-hmm. There was, there was that one bad apple, and boy, what difference that one bad apple can make.

[00:20:21] Rachel: Mm.

[00:20:22] Alina: So it was an amalgamation of working on a very high stakes, high visibility initiative, a boss that displayed quite a few psychopathic tendencies.

[00:20:32] Oof. Cruelty, sabotage, intentional cruelty-

[00:20:38] Rachel: Mm …

[00:20:38] Alina: unprofessionalism. It’s literally a chapter in my book, “That’s Progress.” And it’s not to dish on that person ever. It is more sharing what I so dearly wish I had understood- Mm … to reduce suffering for those who will read it. That’s the intent. It’s what I wish I’d known.

[00:20:57] Mm. I wish somebody had told me that. But [00:21:00] it was that. Um, at that same time, there were personal life circumstances that were very, very difficult and very challenging, family circumstances that were kind of… The vice was tightening from all angles, and it was becoming, my life was becoming very compressed and increasingly more stressful.

[00:21:19] And as a result, my immune system started to revolt, and I got sick, really sick. Mm-hmm. Sick where I needed to go on, like, a whole treasure hunt of doctors and treatments to understand how to treat it. Um- Mm … took some time to understand that extreme stress can cause this-

[00:21:41] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:21:42] Alina: this disease that I had.

[00:21:43] And so I was put on a slew of medication that had all kinds of impact on me. One of the medications, and I mean, I found humor in it and I’m grateful that I did, I wasn’t allowed to be in the sun, in sunshine or consume alcohol. And this was during the [00:22:00] time of COVID-19 lockdowns, and so-

[00:22:03] Rachel: Oh, boy …

[00:22:03] Alina: you know, I would joke like, “Am I allowed to smile?

[00:22:06] Is happiness allowed?” Many of my friends, we would get together for virtual happy hours during that time to-

[00:22:12] Rachel: Yeah … to

[00:22:13] Alina: connect, right? Let’s grab a virtual glass of wine and talk, and I didn’t miss the drinking. It’s the, it’s psychologically knowing that I couldn’t. So there was that. Also, watching my children’s virtual school at that time was a disaster.

[00:22:26] Mm. You know, kids need, people need people at all ages, and, uh, children need other children. They need to socialize. They weren’t able to, so they were locked in. We were constricted, physically constricted, very intense work circumstances, health in really bad shape. It’s all going down, and a boss who I have never before or since met at that level of psychopathy.

[00:22:51] Rachel: Mm.

[00:22:52] Alina: And that was something. And so I was breaking down. I was breaking down, and my body was [00:23:00] continually breaking more. Mm. And I felt that the universe was speaking to me, like, “Hey, Alina, knock, knock.”

[00:23:07] Rachel: Hmm. “

[00:23:07] Alina: How about something changing?” And I could hear the voice, but then what I understood was I wasn’t hearing the voice loud enough.

[00:23:15] Hmm. So then the universe was like, “How about you break your foot a little bit?”

[00:23:20] Rachel: Oh, no. “

[00:23:21] Alina: Will you be able to hear me now?”

[00:23:24] Rachel: Mm.

[00:23:24] Alina: And by my actions, I unconsciously responded, “I can hear you, but not quite well enough.”

[00:23:33] Rachel: Oh, no.

[00:23:34] Alina: And then the universe said, “Well, what if we just injure your ankle as well? Is that gonna help?”

[00:23:41] Rachel: Oh, geez.

[00:23:42] Alina: And so then, then I had this injured foot and ankle, and body’s breaking down. I’m on medication, and I’m taking care of my kids who are- in isolation and it’s really bad for them psychologically. Bad situation, we’re [00:24:00] locked in. I’m immunocompromised because of the medication I’m on, so I can’t really be around other people.

[00:24:06] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:07] Alina: And the work situation, not from the work itself- Mm-hmm … that’s the thing. Mm-hmm. It’s not the work. It’s not all the dozens and dozens of people I’m collaborating with and working together to get things done. It’s, it’s the leader-

[00:24:22] Rachel: Hmm …

[00:24:22] Alina: that’s poisoning the water and creating circumstances that are making it really difficult to live.

[00:24:31] I had chest pains. I would wake up in the middle of the night with… I’d never in my life had anything close to a panic attack. I would feel a tightening in my chest. So I was getting sick, and that was my life just breaking.

[00:24:43] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. How did you finally get yourself out of this?

[00:24:48] Alina: Yeah. I, um, I felt that there were multiple bottoms I could hit, and I made a decision that this bottom where I was presently is the bottom that I would like, the lowest bottom I would like to have [00:25:00] reached.

[00:25:00] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:25:00] Alina: I recognized that it, if I keep going, it could get even worse. I decided that, that this was… I, I had enough. I cried uncle. Like I tapped out if this was a wrestling match- Mm-hmm … with the universe. I tapped. Said, “Okay, this was it. I had enough.” And so I reached out to a coach, and I had reached out to a therapist.

[00:25:23] Rachel: Mm.

[00:25:24] Alina: And I started developing my own practices to maintain my own sanity, and I just, I started developing my very first sequence of micro habit stacking, which is so incredibly effective, and I work with leaders today- Mm … um, in helping them find their own proprietary sequence- Mm … of their, like, quick one, two, threes to reset to get back to themselves.

[00:25:51] Always coming-

[00:25:51] Rachel: Nice …

[00:25:51] Alina: comes back to yourself. So those are some of the steps I took. Certainly, like sleep rituals. I started morning rituals. I [00:26:00] started a gratitude practice. I started a certain regimen of what I would eat. Mm-hmm. I would, you know, I started drinking water with a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar.

[00:26:12] Yeah. Um, and, and, and it’s the ritual-

[00:26:15] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:26:16] Alina: more than the actual substance- Yeah … that really made a difference.

[00:26:20] Rachel: Wow. Yeah. So it, it sounds like before you had your breakdown-

[00:26:27] Alina: Mm …

[00:26:27] Rachel: you were, I mean, I’m sure you were still busy doing lots of things, but you didn’t have all of the rituals for taking care of your nervous system.

[00:26:39] Alina: That’s right. That’s right. What, what I had done is taken myself off the list for a long time. I was the caretaker, so I would- Mm … be the, the martyr. I was the one who carried everything on her shoulders. Hmm. And then I forgot to put myself on the list of priorities.

[00:26:58] Rachel: Right.

[00:26:58] Alina: I wasn’t even the [00:27:00] last on the list, I just was, didn’t make it to the list.

[00:27:02] Rachel: And it’s so common, especially for women who are moms and working high-level jobs. Mm-hmm. Like this is-

[00:27:11] Alina: Yes. Yes. Yes. And, and single moms.

[00:27:13] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:14] Alina: Right? As a single mom, it’s just-

[00:27:15] Rachel: Especially …

[00:27:16] Alina: for moms, for single moms, for women

[00:27:19] Rachel: Mm-hmm

[00:27:20] Alina: It’s not at all uncommon to just forget, like, “Oh, I matter too. I should probably do something for myself.”

[00:27:28] Mm-hmm. And so that began a fortification. That began the healing, the growing from breaking open-

[00:27:34] Rachel: Mm …

[00:27:35] Alina: and rebuilding a life. And rebuild a life I did. It was a rebuild of my nervous system, of my relationships, of my boundaries, of my routines, of my non-negotiables. It was a huge rebuild, and I continue to work on it.

[00:27:52] The work is not done. The work continues as long as- It

[00:27:54] Rachel: never is.

[00:27:55] Alina: Yeah … as long as I live, the work continues, and that’s true for all of us. But that’s… I am [00:28:00] so grateful for that breaking open-

[00:28:03] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:28:03] Alina: for that pressurization. I would’ve never a- I would’ve never seen what I got to see, and I can’t unsee it, and I can’t unlearn it, and I’m so grateful.

[00:28:13] I don’t want to unlearn it.

[00:28:15] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:15] Alina: It’s such a gift, such a gift through, through that suffering.

[00:28:20] Rachel: You know, when I was in grad school, I remember they told us, this is my therapy program, they told us, “You can acquire knowledge through all kinds of learning, but wisdom is only acquired through suffering.” And I remember it so much because one of my classmates got so pissed at the faculty.

[00:28:42] This very normally mild-mannered person absolutely threw down with our faculty, being like, “That’s not always true,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And I, I don’t know if it always has to be suffering, ’cause maybe I’d quibble with that word- Mm-hmm … but [00:29:00] probably through loss, right? Yes. Suffering, some suffering is inevitable, but some other parts of suffering are optional, right?

[00:29:10] But loss is inevitable, so.

[00:29:13] Alina: Mm. Absolutely.

[00:29:14] Rachel: I have a similar story, not in the fine details, but how I found myself and deeper wisdom through loss. So I really feel that, and I- Mm-hmm … I feel similarly. I wouldn’t undo any of it.

[00:29:29] Alina: Absolutely. I’m grateful for it.

[00:29:31] Rachel: So we’re gonna move into the section of the show where we open the private ledger, because at the top, no one sees your balance sheet of burdens.

[00:29:42] But here on this show, we get to take a sneak peek into your private ledger. So we’d love to hear, first of all, what’s one cost that you experienced of being in leadership? Like, what did it take from you emotionally or relationally or [00:30:00] physically? You, you’ve referred to some of, some of this, but-

[00:30:03] Alina: Hmm

[00:30:03] Rachel: what’s one that you would name?

[00:30:06] Alina: It’s choices, right? And it’s interesting because it can be, it can be a cost and it can be an asset. Mm-hmm. But it’s m- choices to not be able to, to deprioritize. When we’re prioritizing showing up for our teams and leading with heart and leading well, we’re choosing to focus our time and energy-

[00:30:29] Rachel: Mm-hmm

[00:30:29] Alina: there. And oftentimes that means that we’re choosing to not spend time and energy elsewhere at that time.

[00:30:35] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:35] Alina: And so it’s this idea of can you have it all? And I believe one can, quote unquote, “have it all,” just not all at the same time. Not at

[00:30:45] Rachel: the same time,

[00:30:46] Alina: exactly. Not, not in that one moment, not in that one hour, not in that one day.

[00:30:50] You are always in choice. Yeah. And so there is always a cost to every choice that we’re making.

[00:30:57] Rachel: Mm.

[00:30:57] Alina: Hopefully what we’re choosing has [00:31:00] a greater reward, and that balance sheet is in the black and not in the red.

[00:31:06] Rachel: What is one invisible asset that you didn’t realize that you had at the time?

[00:31:14] Alina: The strength I didn’t understand that I had.

[00:31:17] I didn’t know that I was capable of what I learned I’m capable of. The resilience, the adaptability- Mm … agility, that I am in choice. What, what a gift. What a gift to know that I am in choice, and that’s incredibly powerful and inspiring. And when it’s real and it’s true and it’s no BS, the team knows.

[00:31:42] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:43] Alina: Colleagues know when it’s authentic and real and you believe, and you’re showing up- Mm … in your humanity, not in all of your perfection, and not in the pretending. It’s powerful to s- to stand in who you are, to stand in your [00:32:00] values, to understand what it’s all for.

[00:32:03] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:04] Alina: It shines through, and it’s, it’s electrifying and tremendously powerful.

[00:32:09] It’s a magnetism that is tremendously powerful and can impact that leader’s life like it did mine, and it lights the people up as well because they see it.

[00:32:20] Rachel: So it sounds like your invisible asset was really your authenticity.

[00:32:25] Alina: Mm.

[00:32:26] Rachel: Right? Like, you being all of who you are.

[00:32:29] Alina: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and there’s a caveat to that I want to say.

[00:32:33] When people say, it’s very common, commonly heard in organizational culture conversations, “All that you are, bring your whole self to work.” And I kind of want to say to that, “Please don’t.” You leave your dirty socks on the floor, please don’t bring your whole self to work.

[00:32:50] Rachel: Mm.

[00:32:51] Alina: You’re a slob in the kitchen, like, don’t bring your whole self.

[00:32:55] You don’t need to do that. You don’t need to chop parts of yourself and be fake.

[00:32:59] Rachel: Mm-hmm. [00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Alina: But contextualizing is important, and it matters- Right … and it’s undeniable, so.

[00:33:05] Rachel: I mean, everyone has the resting face that they- … have when they’re not on the Zoom camera. You know, you, you click the off on Zoom and your face goes- Right.

[00:33:15] It’s, it’s resting … no longer… Right. You, you still wanna bring, like, we don’t want a fake smile, right? But we- That’s right … we also don’t want the I’m putting no consideration into other humans who have to interact with me.

[00:33:30] Alina: That’s right. That’s right. I’m tired. It’s 5:30, and if I were alone, maybe I’ll roll my eyes and sigh loudly.

[00:33:37] Rachel: Right. Yeah.

[00:33:38] Alina: I don’t… That’s not… Is

[00:33:40] Rachel: that what we want to do? A little bit of filter for the sake of social cohesion is important. In, in my grad school, one of my teachers would talk about the difference between truth and transparency.

[00:33:51] Alina: Hmm. Beautiful distinction.

[00:33:53] Rachel: Oh, yeah. Uh, I mean, truth is really important in relationships to establish [00:34:00] trust, to, to just live relatively as honestly as you can.

[00:34:04] But transparency, full constant transparency would ruin every relationship.

[00:34:10] Alina: Oh, every relationship.

[00:34:12] Rachel: Every single

[00:34:12] Alina: one. I mean, we’re talking, you know, personal relationships, marriages- Mm-hmm … boyfriends and girlfriends. You

[00:34:19] Rachel: know, I- Everybody who ever asks, “Do I look fat in this?”

[00:34:22] Alina: That’s right.

[00:34:23] Rachel: You know what? You are already out in public.

[00:34:25] Exactly. Like…

[00:34:26] Alina: That’s right. Exactly. So it’s, there’s… Exactly. There’s a huge- Yeah … it, it’s a very important, um, the discernment to know the difference between those two-

[00:34:34] Rachel: Yeah …

[00:34:34] Alina: is very, very important between truth and transparency. I love that, and it’s- Yeah … a wonderful reminder.

[00:34:40] Rachel: So I think- Yeah … what you’re talking about, the importance of authenticity is the truth of you- Right

[00:34:47] but not the transparent, the constantly transparent

[00:34:51] Alina: you. Yeah. Yeah, like you don’t need to know that the lunch didn’t agree with me and I needed to be in the bathroom for 30 minutes, right? Like, that’s not necessary. That- That’s, that’s transparency- [00:35:00] Right … that is not needed.

[00:35:01] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Alina: Um.

[00:35:03] Rachel: Yeah. Well, tell us the last thing in your private ledger.

[00:35:07] One investment now that you’re making for your wellbeing, for your soul’s wellbeing. Um- Oh … I mean, you gave us so many micro habits, right? But, like, just one good-

[00:35:19] Alina: Oh …

[00:35:19] Rachel: one good tip or trick.

[00:35:21] Alina: Something that’s really helpful when people feel stuck- Mm … and I do, when I feel stuck.

[00:35:25] Rachel: Hmm.

[00:35:26] Alina: Um, stuck or stale is a dislodging is what I call it.

[00:35:31] Hmm. We need to be dislodged and disoriented. And so for anyone who feels stuck The invitation is to introduce something, the easiest thing, nothing is too small, that feels different, where you’re looking at something you don’t usually look at- Mm-hmm … you’re touching something you don’t usually touch, you’re experiencing something that you usually don’t.

[00:35:53] It could be a grand gesture, it could be a small gesture. So an example of- Mm … a grand gesture, a more grand gesture is [00:36:00] I went kayaking for the first time in my life over the weekend.

[00:36:04] Rachel: Ooh.

[00:36:04] Alina: And that was a bigger thing, right? And my eyes don’t usually look at a lake. My hands don’t usually hold a paddle.

[00:36:11] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:11] Alina: I am usually not in a buoyant, in a boat, in a kayak, and so that was beautiful and amazing. A smaller habit is when you get up in the morning, and if you usually start brushing your teeth on the right side of your mouth, try left. If you usually walk on the right side of the street to get to where you’re going, try the other side.

[00:36:34] Rachel: Mm-hmm. I love that. You know, one of the things I talk about often in my blog and in my email list is that brains are lazy. You know? Absolutely. Both the brain and the bodies are lazy. It’s an evolutionary thing where they want to do the least amount of work. It’s a fuel conservation effort all the time.

[00:36:53] Like, below the radar, your brain and your body are gonna do the least they possibly can, [00:37:00] and that’s also how we can get stuck in ruts. So what you’re inviting people to do is challenge your brain to be less lazy, because that will dislodge, as you say, the pattern that you’re in, and encourage the brain to do some other thinking, some other noticing.

[00:37:17] Mm-hmm. I love that.

[00:37:20] Alina: Thank you. And something to say about that also is as we take on the small habits of change and, and we dislodge ourselves, one of the things about our brains is also that we want to… We’re programmed to keep the routine.

[00:37:34] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:34] Alina: Safety is seen as don’t change. Change is seen as a threat.

[00:37:38] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:38] Alina: Our brains perceive change as threat. Threat- Mm-hmm … don’t change anything. Stay the same. Well, that’s stuckness.

[00:37:46] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:46] Alina: That is the dislodging. This, that is what we’re dislodging. And so- Mm-hmm … making it m- the least intimidating, the most manageable, the so easy that you say, “Well, of course I can do that”-

[00:37:59] Rachel: Yeah[00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Alina: is the safer way to- Mm-hmm … start something that can be an incredible, beautiful start of a chain reaction, a domino effect, where you start something teeny tiny-

[00:38:11] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:38:11] Alina: and it builds, and it builds, and it builds.

[00:38:14] Rachel: So we’re gonna wrap up with a couple questions, our end questions we always do. The first one of which is, what do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?

[00:38:28] Alina: Oh. I’m not okay.

[00:38:31] Rachel: Hmm. Yeah. Bam. I think that’s it. Yeah, I agree. I, I do. I mean, they have to say it in the right place, right?

[00:38:40] Alina: Of course.

[00:38:41] Rachel: But, yeah. In the

[00:38:41] Alina: right place. It’s the, “I need help.”

[00:38:44] Rachel: Everyone needs somebody- Yeah … that they can turn to and say, “I’m not okay,” you know? So that- They do … they get a place to get that support.

[00:38:52] Alina: Absolutely. They’re used to being the strong one. They’re used to being the place that others can land on.

[00:38:58] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:59] Alina: But the permission [00:39:00] to be the one that’s vulnerable, that gets the help, is really incredibly powerful.

[00:39:04] Rachel: Yeah. ‘

[00:39:04] Alina: Cause inevitably, every leader reaches an inflection point where they’re now out of their comfort zone-

[00:39:11] Rachel: Mm-hmm

[00:39:12] Alina: and they, they’re disoriented and they don’t know what to do, and they’re questioning much of their lives and themselves and their abilities and, and

[00:39:19] Rachel: their- Well, you know, before we come to the last question, before we open the time machine- … I’m sure that there are leaders listening to this that might be interested in getting support from you.

[00:39:34] How would they find you?

[00:39:35] Alina: Well, they can go to highlineleadership.com, and on the website they can click the Let’s Chat button- Mm-hmm … and they can come into my calendar, and there’s an invitation to an exploratory chat and see, see what’s up. They can also find me on LinkedIn, Alina Doran-

[00:39:55] Rachel: Mm-hmm …

[00:39:55] Alina: and, um, and message me.

[00:39:58] I check my messages myself. [00:40:00] I reply to them myself. Uh, I don’t outsource that- Nice … to an assistant, so absolutely, one of two ways, LinkedIn or my website- Love it … Highline Leadership.

[00:40:09] Rachel: Love it. Okay, here we go. We’re getting into the time machine. If you right now can step into this time machine I’ve just opened up for you-

[00:40:19] Alina: Hmm

[00:40:20] Rachel: and you go back into a time in the past, in your past, what version of yourself would you visit and what would you say to her?

[00:40:29] Alina: I would visit my two years out, out of school, so two, three years into working.

[00:40:37] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:38] Alina: And I would go back to that self that was afraid to ask the question, was afraid to stick out, was afraid to look dumb by questioning.

[00:40:49] Rachel: Hmm.

[00:40:50] Alina: To say, “Nobody always knows what they’re doing. We are all taking risks. Take the risk.”

[00:40:57] Rachel: Hmm. “

[00:40:58] Alina: Take the risk. Ask the [00:41:00] question. Try it on.”

[00:41:03] Rachel: Hmm. Yeah. Lovely. “

[00:41:05] Alina: It’s okay. It’s going to be okay. You don’t have to play it

[00:41:09] Rachel: Yes. Well, wonderful that you eventually did learn that because it got you where you are now.

[00:41:17] Thanks so much for being with us today.

[00:41:20] Alina: Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful.

[00:41:23] Rachel: Thanks for being with us, Alina. And to everyone listening, thanks for listening to Lonely at the Top. If today’s conversation resonated, I hope you’ll give yourself permission to pause even for just a moment and check in with what you probably are carrying silently.

[00:41:40] You don’t have to hold it all alone. If you’re ready for support that goes deeper than strategy, you can learn more about working with me at rachealexandria.com. If you know another leader who needs to hear this show, please send it their way because, yeah, it’s lonely at the top, but it doesn’t have to stay that [00:42:00] way

[00:42:00]

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